tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9605443.post116111716913670542..comments2023-07-31T11:16:26.491+08:00Comments on The Threshold of Hope: A brief history of the MassUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9605443.post-1161450377696511492006-10-22T01:06:00.000+08:002006-10-22T01:06:00.000+08:00The history of the Mass is really anything but bri...The history of the Mass is really anything but brief, and to condense it , may not do justice to the rich history and Tradition of the Church that has existed for 2,000 years. Personally I wouldn't get ahead of myself, to claim to be able to produce "a brief history of the Mass". <BR/><BR/>The focus should really be instead on "What is the Mass?" and "Why is [this action] done in the Mass?". The historical aspect would be more supplementary. As for the format...Q&A would be more digestible and effective than a long essay. <BR/><BR/>Some Liturgical References...<BR/>http://www.zenit.org/english/liturgy/ <BR/>http://www.wdtprs.com/blog/<BR/>http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_1_jan05.asp<BR/>http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2005/fessio_massv2_2_jan05.aspAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9605443.post-1161319767540907092006-10-20T12:49:00.000+08:002006-10-20T12:49:00.000+08:00Hi Demerzel and Norman,You both share with us inte...Hi Demerzel and Norman,<BR/><BR/>You both share with us interesting information about the history of the Mass and the mistakes in my post from John J. Dietzen. <BR/><BR/>Given your knowledge and interest in the Mass, how about the both of you work together, along with whoever else is interested, to produce a more historically accurate "Brief history of the Mass"?<BR/><BR/>That would be better that criticising the current post and it will give us all a more complete picture of how the Mass came to be what it is today. It would be objective and informative for all our readers, and would present the history of the Mass briefly for another who has a passing interest in learning more about it.<BR/><BR/>You would be the best persons on this blog to do this because you already have a special interest in the topic and the knowledge is already there, along with whatever resources are needed.<BR/><BR/>What do you think?Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17423334447265311020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9605443.post-1161231628600968282006-10-19T12:20:00.000+08:002006-10-19T12:20:00.000+08:00Just some very preliminary comments: There are som...Just some very preliminary comments: There are some (in fact very few) valid point that are found in this article. <BR/><BR/>It is Quo Primum (1570) that preserved all of the Rites that had existed for at least 200 years previous to it. In terms of full-fledged Liturgical Rites there were the Roman, Ambrosian, Mozarabic and Bragan Rites. In terms of variations of the Roman Rites, there were the Carmelite, Dominican, Norbertine, Benedictine, Servite and Carthusian. All these were protected and flourished. The option was to use a different Missal not just to find options within a single Missal. There were variations to the gestures, variations to the Ordinary and variation to the Calendar. That the main Roman Missal is the only one allowed is a very real ignorance of history and a rather dishonest point to make. <BR/><BR/>Different Missals were allowed to exist and allowed to be used, and the Mass was celebrated in different forms. Following Missale Romanum (1969) only 1 Missal was allowed. <BR/><BR/>The Rites listed above all underwent gradual development, the Novus Ordo that we have today did not. <BR/><BR/>Was the liturgy frozen in time? Sacred Music flourished. So many Masses were composed by the great composers like Beethoven, Hayden and Mozart. For the same liturgical text, a huge variety of tunes were composed. Contemporary music used in the Church pales in comparison. Incremental additions were also made to the Missal. <BR/><BR/>And well the Mass is not just an “offering” it is the Holy Sacrifice that is pleasing to God the Father in reparation for our Sin. <BR/><BR/>At the end of it all it is not just about a preference of a particular point in history. Rather, it is the desire to have the Catholic Faith fully expressed in all its splendour. The Church is 2,000 years old not 40 years old. In terms of liturgy the idea of “out with the old in with the new” is totally alien to the Church Fathers. As St Paul writes in his Epistle to the Thessalonians “traditions which you have learned”. <BR/><BR/>The Mass familiar to St John Bosco, St Alphonsus Ligouri, St Faustina, St Maximillian Kolbe, St John Baptist De La Salle, St France de Sales, Pare Pio, St Jose Maria Escriva, St Therese of Lisieux, St Teresa of Avila, St Vincent de Paul, St Teresa Benedicta of he Cross and St Jean Vianney is now alien to us. The Mass that sustained the WW1 and WW2 soldiers is unfamiliar to us. <BR/><BR/>This is one source that I personally do not find ‘objective and well-informed’. Fr John Zuhlsdorf on WDTPRS is a far better source on Liturgy as is Msgr Peter Elliot and Msgr Klaus Gamber. Even better would be the writings of then Joseph Ratzinger.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9605443.post-1161189783698122552006-10-19T00:43:00.000+08:002006-10-19T00:43:00.000+08:00I cannot comment on whether Norman or Father John ...I cannot comment on whether Norman or Father John J. Dietzen is more accurate with regard to the facts.<BR/><BR/>All I know is that he specialized in answering questions that dealt with the then still "new" liturgy that had evolved since Vatican II. <BR/><BR/>If you're interested in finding out more about what he writes, you can still find him answering questions at Catholic News Service. Here you will find a page containing 400+ questions that he's answered: <BR/><BR/>http://plweb.catholicnews.com/plweb-cgi/fastweb?TemplateName=prehit.tmpl&view=Columns&dbname=Columns&query=%27Question%20Corner%27%3Aslugline&query_rule=%28%24query%29&operator=AND&numresults=25&sorting=none<BR/><BR/>It is an excellent source of objective information for those who don't have the time to research for answers to questions on the Catholic faith. <BR/><BR/>There is too a danger of reading church documents on our own, because we tend to pick out what we want to read, to pick out what supports our own viewpoint. I too am guilty of this as well. Hence it is always important to find an objective and well-informed source.<BR/><BR/>As for my comments, I see nothing constructive to add. It was merely my reason for sharing the content in the above post.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17423334447265311020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9605443.post-1161143006551451182006-10-18T11:43:00.000+08:002006-10-18T11:43:00.000+08:00Kudos! Thank you for sharing this Daniel. I fully ...Kudos! Thank you for sharing this Daniel. I fully agree and it should give a new perspective on the Youth Mass and other MassesChrisYeohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04480542368518702944noreply@blogger.com